Lisbon: Why I voted no

Since the result came out today, the TV bobbleheads have been telling me why I voted no. While they might have suggested one of the reasons why I voted no, they did not discuss all of the reasons.

Before I start, and before the accusations of bias start flying, let me state that these are my own views personally, and it is hoped that one of the other writers who voted yes will also put up a post

There is a saying. “If you can’t dazzle them with diamonds, then baffle them with bullshit.” From where I sat, this is pretty much what both sides did in the campaign leading up to yesterday’s referrendum. So why did I vote no.

The treaty text

Many of our esteemed politicians didn’t even read it, and it is not hard to figure out why. Nearly every paragraph in the over 200 page document referred to sub paragraphs and numbered ammendments to a myriad of other documents, making the document impossible to navigate and understand. It was impossible to figure out whether or not there would be mass abortions, euthaenasia, prostitution, debotchery were I to vote for the treaty. The most I could figure out was that it gave more power to the European Court of Justice which, were a case brought to it, order that certain things such as all those nasty things could be brought about. At least that is what the No camp were pretty much saying.

Neutrality

We stopped being neutral the day US military and CIA flights first touched down at Shannon. Whether the Lisbon Treaty passed or not would not change this. The No camp said that we would lose our neutrality, what neutrality. The yes camp said we would not lose our neutrality. You can’t lose what you don’t have.

You should be grateful to Europe

What have I to be grateful to Europe for, the roads? I don’t have a car., besides, most of the roads under construction in this country are public-private partnerships, and those such as the new Limerick Tunnel, will be tolled. Our fishermen were blockading ports this week because, due to European quota systems, they can only catch a certain number of a certain type of fish, putting a limit on what they can earn. The high fuel prices don’t help. I don’t know much about the fishing industry, how ever here is what I do know. If fisherman X throws his net over his boat to catch one type of fish, and catches a couple of another type of fish as well, they have to throw the second type of fish overboard because they are not allowed to sell them. If they are found to have them on their ship, they can be dragged before the Circuit Criminal Court. While all our fishermen have to stick to stiff restrictions, Spanish fishermen can hoover up anything and everything it seems.

The introduction of the Euro saw prices of everything jump. It was hoped that with it’s introduction, it would make it easier to show that the Irish were being ripped off for everything and hopefully embarrass retailers to bring their prices in line with the rest of Europe. It didn’t happen. Everything was rounded up instead of down, and the “paddy tax” goes on to this day.

Scare tactics

We were told by the Yes side that if we rejected this treaty, all sorts of bad things would happen. We would be isolated, nobody in Europe would like us any more, We would lose all our jobs and all the Polish women would leave our shores for the safety of a country which ratified the treaty. We were told we who vote no were anti-Europe. It’s sort of like the way those who objected to the Iraq war being branded Anti-American, or “you don’t support the troops.” Sorry, but I think we are smarter than that. The yes side came across as trying to bully people rather than inform them. Nobody likes a bully. That kind of politics might work in the States, but as has been proven, it falls on it’s arse on this side of the Atlantic.

Non democratic

Every country in the European Union has to be a democracy, yet the European Union itself is run by unelected commissioners. The Lisbon treaty would have added an unelected president of the commission to the list of people in Europe we did not vote for. For those that are at the top of the EU, it comes across as one big massive gravy train, swallowing up money.

Another example of how the EU is undemocratic is that when we rejected the Nice treaty, we were asked to vote for it again. Albeit with a few declarations. Declarations are not legally binding.

And don’t get me started on the fact that only 800,000 people got the opportunity to decide the fate of over 490 million people today. There should be a law that if one country wants a referendum, then there should be a EU wide referendum.

It’s a matter of trust

Given that the Treaty Document was incomprehensible, it came down to a matter of trust. Do I trust the people who are trying to sell this treaty to me. I would have to say that the answer would be an emphatic “no.” We trusted Willie O’Dea to speak up for us in August of Last year, when, during the Shannon-Heathrow affair, he was full of fighting talk about how if we couldn’t get the government to intervene, “we would find another way.” One month later O’Dea voted on a debate on Shannon-Heathrow he didn’t even attend. He voted for non-intervention, in line with the Government, and the Shannon Heathrow link was lost.

We have Bertie Ahern handling all sorts of money, in a multitude of currencies, from a multitude of sources, and half of it he can’t remember where it came from.

We have Dick Roche, former minister for the Environment, and current minister for European Affairs, who spent his time in the department of Local Government fudging, rather than dealing with, the matter of the City’s boundary extension.

I do not trust the people who tried to sell me this treaty.

So to summarise. I don’t owe Europe anything, Europe has been well rewarded for whatever moneys they have sent us. They have been paid well with our fish stocks and other natural resources. I am not anti-Europe, how dare anyone accuse me of being so. The EEC we joined is different to the EU we are now a member of, and I don’t like the direction the EU is going at the moment. I don’t like bullies. Anyone who says “vote yes or else” can take their treaty and stick it where the sun don’t shine.

  • Pat Johnston
    Keith,

    Do you have even the remotest idea of what democracy is about ?

    Have you even the slightest bit of respect for the wishes of the majority of the electorate as expressed through the ballot box?
  • Hoof
    Steve, all depends who we're neutral against, to quote an old Irish phrase.

    WW2 we were neutral against the Nazis, sending Allied airmen and sailors who ended up in Ireland across the border after a good feed, while interning the Axis forces who landed here for the duration. We supplied Britain with food even though people here had to exist on rations, we posted weather forecasts to the Allies. We allowed Allied aircraft to overfly our airspace - and although we hadn't the ability to knock a bird off his flightpath - let off ack-ack fire at any straying Luftwaffe pilot. Still though Dev managed to buy a Mass-card for Adolf after his mishap in Der Bunker....well we were neutral!

    Cold War we decided to stay neutral against the Atheist Communists, God love 'em. These days we're neutral against Al-Qaeda.... I think, but WillieO is due back from the wars in Chad soon, so maybe he'll tell us who we stare at from the fence these days.

    Maybe they were all lying. After all when were we ever really "neutral"
  • steve white
    the no side actually said it further erode our dying neutrality, the yes side said it would enshrine our neutrality, who was lying?
  • @Seabhcan

    "If your Irish, a democratic EU would mean that Ireland would have 0.5% of the EU vote - we would never have a voice."

    Well, we do have less than 1% of the population... so to have less 1% of the vote would seem quite democratic to me.

    (Either way, the 0.5% figure isn't correct.)
  • skyguy
    Keith it was a great day for the no camp, democracy and for Europe in general, now can we not just all get along, the earth is still turning, we are still breathing the same air and nothing has changed, which is what we voted for, no change
  • Keith
    Thank's for proving my point skyguy!!
  • skyguy
    aaahhh Keith, has someones dummy falling out of his pram!!!!!!
  • Keith
    Skyguy, you're one to talk, I'd rather take a sore loser than a belligerent victor any day.
  • skyguy
    the yes voters are very sour losers, come on the no vote what a victory
  • Seabhcan
    More democracy in the EU would be great... if your German.

    If your Irish, a democratic EU would mean that Ireland would have 0.5% of the EU vote - we would never have a voice.

    I voted Yes to protect Ireland against a democratic EU.
  • SpeedyG
    We should all be very proud that we voted no and look at the Irish vote as being the true voice of Europe since no other country had a choice to vote on this. You have to ask the question if other countries had a referendum on this what would the outcome have been. We are in a unique situation whereby any amendments to our constitution must be voted on by the people .The EU is constantly trying to take power away from the people. This is very undemocratic. Our nation and many nations of the world are built on democracy and hopefully will continue to do so. Democracy has made us the nation we are, not the EU. Democracy has rejected the Lisbon Treaty and the EU commissioners should sit up and take note.
  • Ronan
    Great points Redsky. People here try to debate issues intelligently and that's what you come up with.
    I voted no because I believed the process was undemocratic. If it was such a good deal why weren't Irish party members allowed to voice concerns and talk openly about the issues instead of repeating PR speeches.
    France and the Netherlands rejected the main parts of this treaty and weren't allowed the vote on the changes. How is that democratic ?

    If everyone in Europe was allowed to vote on the treaty and there was open and frank discussions on the issue , I would have voted yes. This didn't happen however. If they try to get us to vote again, it's only going to be rejected by a much bigger margin.

    Cowen shouldn't apologise. It would be insulting to the Irish people.
    If the rest of Europe think they would have passed the Treaty then why didn't they have a vote ?
  • skyguy
    I think a lot of things made people vote no, Ill name a few
    1) not happy with Bertie saga.
    2) not happy with Fiannia fail.
    3) not happy with what happened with Heathrow v's Shannon route.
    4) politicians trying to bully the people into voting yes.
    5) People not happy with crime/Drugs and the government doing f*ck all about it .
    6) the farming community are not happy with the rules of the EU.
    7) the fishing community are not happy with the rules of the EU.
    8)People didn't understand the Treaty.
    9) People understood the treaty and voted no.

    now I know the first 7 are not good reasons to vote NO but they are valid reasons all the same, I think if there was another general election Fiania Fail would not get in and then if there was another referendum it would be passed
  • Redsky: Are you for real? Do you really think that people voted no for no good reason..I mean i agree with Squids reasoning for voting no.
    I myself voted no for similar reasons but as petty as it sounds i also voted no as Fuck you to the Government and their cronies that wanted to barrage through a yes vote.. Tough shit if you didnt like it,lets see how good they are at getting out of this particular mess (self created)
  • Redsky
    Name one good reason. Vote no because your daughter got pregnant? Vote no because your garden doesn't have enough flowers in it? Maybe it's because the weather wasn't good enough for a yes vote?
  • jab
    sour grapes eh redsky? just because you didnt like the result does not make the no campaign stupid. they had good reasons to vote no,
  • Redsky
    He needs to apologise for the absolute sheer stupidness of the majority country's electorate.
  • 1916
    Brian Cowen does not need to apologize to the European community for this treaty been rejected, it was rejected because the majority of people were ill informed. Our leader needs to respect the decision of this land and make no apology as it would be an insult to the electorate who did not want to ratify this treaty - the majority as it turned out.
  • john wayne
    Great post Squid! I voted no in spite of Sinn Fein. I imagine extreme groups , left and right, hurt the no campaign. Anyway it is a very positive outcome..............................
  • Joehickey
    SF had a huge part in mobilising working class voters to come out and vote. The results in those areas were all solid no. 84% in Southill, similar results in Weston, Moyross, Ballynanty, Kileely etc from what I heard. SF canvassed all those areas- only party to do so.
  • curly wurly
    "Surely these areas would badly need eu funding?"

    Apart from getting free tins of beef in the early 80's, we never got anything from the EU.

    "Could that be because in these places sinn fein are very influential?"

    No but Quinlivan makes it his business to acually go up there and highlight the issues that the rest would rather ignore.
  • CorkMan
    @largeladd

    Well the councill are more stricter about who they give houses to in knocka.I think mayfield is worse than it now.Im living in galway now in a place called ballybane and its as bad as anywhere.Someone was saying about a galway paper covering up crime in galway on this site before.The last few months the Galway Advertiser has stopped the garda report section.Its either galway has improved or they are covering their tracks.So social disadvantage isnt a problem exclusive to Limerick.
  • Ian G
    One of the things that I think should be considered more is the obvious disconnect in this referendum between the elected and the general population. A huge majority of the Dail were in favour, and yet they didn't represent the views of the electorate. I know it is always as such, but it's just a glaringly large example of the disconnect.

    Does any have a figure of how many TDs were for by the way? Not counting dissenters etc.?
  • LargeLADD
    They don't need funding they need knocking corkman i know from experience, i don't know about cork but being from st mary's park in limerick and having relatives spread across the city i can say with the exception of moyross there's no community spirit in these areas. Best thing to do is knock these places and rebuild something else possibly something industrious
  • Pat
    @corkman,

    Sure, SF made an effort in this campaign.

    To be honest though, I think that they were only a small part.

    I have heard several people say that they were voting no, "despite being on the same side as Sinn Fein" :-)

    I read Gerry Adams being quoted in todays Independent talking about the "Mary Lou factor". To be honest I think he is calling it wrong, to me its just another sign of how out of touch he personally is with the southern electorate. Thats just my opinion for what its worth.
  • CorkMan
    I find it interasting that southill and knocnaheeny rejected it by a vast majority.Could that be because in these places sinn fein are very influential?Surely these areas would badly need eu funding?
  • notanimpersonator
    Another great post Squid. Very honest and gutsy.

    It has guts, simply because our lords and masters, despite showing that they are not in touch with the electorate and think that the electorate should do as they say, rather than the other way around, are now acting as if yesterday's historic result is a blunder and a mistake. You'll be curtly informed, through the media and other outlets, that your actions were a result of you not being informed adequately - that it wasn't a matter of making up your own mind, that it was a matter of you not having enough information - silly bogger, etc. etc...

    Mr. Cowen will soon apologise to Europe and the rest of the world on behalf of his poor befuddled bogger population. I'll be keeping my chin up despite this and am proud of the fact that I know my own mind. And, am confident that I'm capable of arriving at an opinion and a stance of my own volition. I'm not a sheep and yesterday wasn't a mistake. Neither was it a result of propaganda, foreign nor domestic. It was the voice of the people following their conscience and there's no shame in that.

    Despite the way you felt, yourself and The Limerick Blogger have offered a fair platform for all sides of the argument. Ye rose above the malarky. I see this site going from strength to strength and it's obvious that Limerick, with regard to the Limerick Blogger, has something to be very proud of. As a Limerickman, I take great pride in being able to keep in touch with the everyday realities of Limerick as posted here.

    Fair play for what you said about neutrality too. It needs saying and it needs saying loud.

    Many regards.
    S.
  • LargeLADD
    I have voted but keep telling anyone that will listen i haven't just to see how many times i can get the same bullshit rant from people about how i'm wrong not to vote i don't have an opinion or say if i don't vote and how many peopl have died for people "like me". Is anybody else sick of hearing that rant from these sheep or is it just me?
  • Olivia
    Thank you! Well said. I've been called uneducated and against Europe. Been told 'i'm giving in to the scare mongering' several several times. Glad to see someone taking the time to post all their reasons.
  • Pat
    In my view it was a great day for democracy. I am 100% for Europe but the democratic deficit needs to be redressed.

    Its sad though to see people like Keith (in a previous posting) still fighting last weeks battles and calling people liars. That particular debate is over and we must now move forward.

    We have a great opportunity to move forward but we must ensure open and free debate to establish what type of Europe we want.

    People petulantly lecturing us from on high will not help this.

    Open and honest debate needs to replace the elites telling us that they know best.
  • Matt Organ
    "Europe has been well rewarded for whatever moneys they have sent us. They have been paid well with our fish stocks and other natural resources"

    Well said sir, one of the things i have been hearing today is how we should be more grateful with the money we got from Europe. We got some crumbs off its table thus we should be like some kind of obedient dogs. As a kid growing up in a fishing family i have seen the true cost of being in a Europe that has only room for big business. In what was a vibrant industry is on its last legs in many parts of this country. We knew as far back as the 70's that fish quotas had to be lessened to save our future fish stocks. All the EEC did was issue more licenses for factory boats. These boats came here and went within the accepted boarders. When the locals fought back they were jailed or fined so much they had to sell their boats.

    The only way forward for the Irish people is to realise the people we put in power are not really representing us and because of that we must take an active role what is happening in our towns, or counties and country. It is then we can make true inroads to Europe.

    Bring it back to the grass roots so to speak before the weeds take over.
  • goo
    if we vote no then the ira will take over the country...DOH! we voted no! :(

    lol
  • Shannaboley
    Scare tactics are what put America into Iraq . What do doctors and babies have to do with it.
  • John Collison
    I don't think scare tactics are a reason to vote no, as both sides were using them in ridiculous quantities. Gay married doctors aborting prostitutes' babies anyone?
blog comments powered by Disqus