Why We Voted Yes!

I have been slated on here as to why I voted yes, and all im going to say now is that everyone is entitled to their opinion and thats all I have ever voiced on here. I could write till the cows come home but im going to hand you over to Keith as he can put it in far more elegant terms than I can, and not only that but im tired of the never ending bickering! so here is why we voted yes, in his voice.

Cited from kimododreams.com: I’m standing up right now and surveying a strange scene. The democratic process has worked admirably and provided us with a response to the 28th amendment to the Irish Constitution. We have made our choice and sent our message out. A strong and resounding NO! Our politicians are coming back to negotiate a better deal!

Oh, there’s just one more thing to mention – I voted yes.

Originally I regarded the Lisbon Treaty with a degree of skepticism, after all I felt that we were been asked to make a complicated decision with a definite deficit of information being provided.

This prompted me to do a few things.

I researched the treaty, then I looked for objective interpretations which could make sense of that which I did not understand.

So what was the Lisbon Treaty all about, really? Was it a sneaky attempt to pull the wool over our eyes and slip a piece of legislation that would see Europe become a federalised super-power, armed to the teeth and raping every country with a population of less than 10 million??

Nope, it was nothing as shocking as that, to put the treaty in context, I want to revert back to the Treaty of Rome, which is document at the beating heart of the European Union.

The problem with the Treaty of Rome is that it was designed to facilitate a decision making process on Economic matters between 6 countries. The policies in this treaty are still being invoked today, but the problem is that the political framework is burgeoning under the weight of 27 states, nearly 5 times the amount of countries that this treaty was originally designed for.

Since 1958 the Union of countries has grown, culminating in the Maastricht Treaty in 1993, which saw the formation of the European Union. I don’t need to tell anyone how well we’ve done from that.

The Treaty of Lisbon was really an attempt to reform the political structure of the European Union so that decisions could be made efficiently. It created protocols to carry out the laws that were defined under the Nice Treaty, and restructured the Council and Commission so that they could handle the diverse interests of 27 countries.

I went and looked at the for and against camps and compared them with the objective information that was already out there in the public domain, and then I made a decision based on the information that was available to me. That decision was to vote yes. I voted yes because:

- being part of a stronger Europe is beneficial for Ireland, particularly because international politics are hairy, and even moreso at the moment, there’s a lot going on the international stage that concerns me, and I think it’s better and important to stand strong together.

- Ireland did quite well in the treaty (provisions on contentious issues were installed to cater specifically for the concerns of Irish people).

- What Ireland stood to gain from this treaty far outweighed what it was giving up, Ireland got a very good deal, for a country as small as us we would still have been a disproportionately strong voice under Lisbon.

- and finally because I was scared into voting yes, by the “Vote No” campaign. Specifically Libertas, whose founder is a US Department of Defence contractor, what business do a private group have in the matters of Irish public politics, this is what frightened me. In the end Libertas blanketed the country in posters, and spent €1.5 Million on their campaign against the Treaty, but why, Lobby groups don’t lobby for the good of the people, lobby groups work for the good of themselves.

So when I got to comparing the interpretations that were presented by the “Vote Yes” camp., and the “Vote No” camp I found that the yes camp were fairly compatible with the objective interpretations of the treaty out there, while the “Vote No” camp. provided a very narrow view of the treaty, and definitely were very selective in their presentation of the Lisbon treaty.

I have taken the 8 points that Libertas have provided on why we should vote no to the Lisbon Treaty, and I wish to point out to you what was appearant to me on reading these points and would urge you to have a look at what they have to say to explain their headings in deference to what I have to say here.

1. Creates an unelected President and a Foreign Minister of Europe
- The conflict here is the term “unelected President”, this contradicts the fact that under the treaty the President would be elected by Qualified Majority Vote: If you believe that the president is unelected then the respective mayors of all the local government in Ireland are too.

2. Halves Ireland’s voting weight while doubling Germany’s
- The old system of voting and the new system are very different, but in reality the “Halving” of Ireland’s voting weight against the “Doubling” of Germany’s is an attempt to distort the truth. In reality you can’t compare the voting systems as they’re not interoperable.

But the simple truth is that Ireland’s voting strength was reduced by more than half, but in practical application, Ireland’s voting weight in favour of passing legislation decreased by only 6%, and our position to block legislation became much stronger and favoured the smaller countries of the EU.

So in reality if Germany wanted to railroad legislation through the EU Council (which would be impossible anyway, as legislation is decided by commissioners and not individual states) Ireland would have been in a better position to stop them had the treaty been ratified.

3. Abolishes Ireland’s Commissioner for five years at a time
The commission decides on EU Legislation only (the nationality of the commissioners should not colour their agenda), and in the exact same manner that the Dáil Éireann functions with the Seanad: The legislation must pass through a separate house to be scrutinized. With reference to my previous point, I realised that it would be easier for Ireland to block legislation that it doesn’t agree with than ever before.

4. Opens the door to interference in tax and other key economic interests
The special provision of a veto in areas of taxation mentioned in Article 113, negates any danger that any attempt to harmonise tax would present, the Council has to vote unanimously on matters of taxation, so there was never ever any danger to our low rate of corporation tax.

5. Hands over power in 60 areas of decision making to Brussels
Yes, unanimity is gone in these 60 areas, but it’s not like decisions are being made without our input, and Brussels isn’t a bad word folks, it’s just the seat of European Government, where we are represented too. Anyway, bearing in mind the fact that would have been ina stronger position to block legislation we wouldn’t have lost much ground here, and at the end of the day qualified majority voting is the only system that’s going to work when it gets to dealing with 27 different countries otherwise nothing would get done.

6. Gives exclusive competence to Brussels over International Trade and Foreign Direct Investment
But the thing here is that this isn’t one of those aforementioned 60 areas. FDI doesn’t come under qualified majority voting. Changes in FDI require unanimity in Article 188C.4, therefore Ireland has a veto in this area, and does not hand over any exclusive control in these areas.

7. Enshrines EU law as superior to Irish law
This point relies on a quotation of the proposed changes to the Constitution of Ireland. Libertas quote subsection 11 of the changes.

“11 No provision of this Constitution invalidates laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by the State that are necessitated by the obligations of membership of the European Union referred to in subsection 10 of this section, or prevents laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by the said European Union or by institutions thereof, or by bodies competent under the treaties referred to in this section, from having the force of law in the State.”

The funny thing is look at the current Irish Constitution, Article 29-4 10°. THIS IS ALREADY THERE almost ad verbatim, bar the reference to Article 29-4 10° in the updated text.

8. The Treaty can be changed without another referendum
Yes it theoretically could, but this has always been the case, nothing changes in this treaty. They cite Article 48 of the treaty to make this statement, but elect to leave out the fact that to amend a treaty requires unanimity from all member states, and Member states need to ratify the amendments via their own internal procedures. Which in Ireland means referendum, if the Attorney General deems it necessary to hold a referendum, this has always been the case in Ireland, so there’s nothing new there.

The No campaign lied, and that’s what cemented me to vote yes. It’s as simple as that, and there’s a ream of demonstrable objective evidence that supports my claim.

So where does this leave us now, Sarkozy is calling for ratification, Barosso is calling for ratification, everyone else is calling for ratification. The white nationalsits, the British Nationalist Party in england are singing our praises, Coir is dancing in the streets because we’re not going to be having abortion forced on us and Libertas is sitting smugly back smiling at us, no doubt our no vote will be very good for business. And all this time, I’m sitting here with the same feeling when I’ve bought something that I know I don’t need and can’t afford, and I’m just waiting for the nation to catch up with me.

  • Hoof
    Just noticed the French "Defence Master Plan" which Libertas were claiming would create an "EU Army" and was being kept in wraps, á la the great conspiracy theory lying in the Élyseés Palace, has been released.

    Main points:
    Cut of 59,000 Defence jobs
    Cut from 271,000 to 224,000 in French Armed Forces - Army, Navy & Air
    Increased resources to fight Terror, Pandemics and Cyber-attacks
    Cut in Combat ready forces from 50,000 to 30,000
    Closure of 50 French Military Bases, including 4 in Africa.

    .....really shaping up for a war alright, aren't they? No wonder they were going to come around to snatch the first-born child off every Irish family (Cóir told me, now I have to believe them or I go to the other hell, the one with Dana in it) for the conscript army, half the French soldiers are going to be surly bar workers so naturally we'll need Irish toddlers to fight the...the....who were we going to be fighting btw, the Cathofascists wouldn't say ?

    Just a note of congrats to Sinn Féin incidentally, the 32 county party can be happier now in the knowledge that the United Kingdom are to ratify Lisbon on Thursday. So 2nd Division Ireland will now have an even more copper-fastened border after the 26 others go into a room next January and sign of on the Prague Protocol or whatever the term for a 2-speed, 2 tier EU becomes.

    Ah well, as long as we don't have to dig up and give back the roads they gave us and go back to the potholes and priest ridden little country some seem happier with.

    btw, well said Keith, but the shite government and equally feeble opposition does have to take ultimate responsibility, it's not entirely up to you or anyone else to have made the argument for a Yes vote in a legible manner (mores the pity nonetheless) and then have the likes of Biffo or Lalou McCreevey going around saying they hadn't read the thing or couldn't make sense of it, then arrogantly expecting a landslide without having bothered to actively campaign (I never saw nor was canvassed by a Yes campaigner)....if Cowen had worked for Libertas he'd have been fired on the spot, those Yanks can spot a lazy git from way off.

    Incidentally, I hear the European Parliament are calling for Charlie McCreevey's head over his lacklustre performance and comments. Every cloud........even if it is a threadbare silver lining.
  • Keith
    There were also less only 6 member states in the EEC at the treaty of Rome, now there's 27 members EU, It just couldn't work today, and the legislation and protocols are buckling under the pressure of the fact that there's nearly 5 times the amount of countries that the original treaty was designed for.

    That was a core part of what the Lisbon and Nice Treaties were to address.
  • The Maker
    All I will say on why I voted no is that we, as in Ireland are more European than France or Germany who blocked the Polish for entering when the borders were taken down so they could work in other EU countries.
    And they dare call us anti European. Bastards. The treaty is dead and they better get to like that. If our government rolls over and plays the fool for the EU and try's to make us vote on the treaty for a second time. It will be a hell of a bigger No for the treaty, that's a guarantee.
    Of course my other reason is we are integrated enough for my liking.
    We need to go back to the EEC, things were so more simpler then.
  • Keith
    But the first seven points aren't valid, they've got nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the treaty (bar point 4).

    As for point 4, if the fianna fail, labour, fine gael and pd's were bullying us, then surely the sinn fein, coir, and libertas were bullying too, it's called campaigning, at least the yes camp didn't flat-out-lie to the people (as I have proved in the story that I wrote above).

    I don't defend the government, I think it's a fucking disgrace, and I've got no confidence in them, they used this campaign to get their nice, shiny white teeth on their posters, but it was our responsiblity to look after ourselves, and we failed to do that.
  • Rhebogue Ranter
    Clare vote yes so that kinda rules out the Shannon Heathrow
  • goo
    enda kenny played no small part in scuttling the lisbon ship either, lol. He stated during heated dail dabates that a vote against the Treaty would be a vote against Berties leadership and of course fianna fail. By the time this sentiment had rippled thru the grassroots and the implications realised, no amount of backpeddaling and pro euro posturing could undo the effect and its believed many FG voters saw the referendum as an opportunity to give the teflon taoiseach and his ruling party a good boot up the backside.

    Brian Cowen of course will bear the brunt of it as clever Bertie having bailed out in advance. The rat is always the first to leave a sinking ship and with the lisbon treaty on the rocks and the Irish economy talkin on water at an alarming rate, Cowen may yet regret ever talkin hold of the wheel.
  • skyguy
    I think a lot of things made people vote no, Ill name a few
    1) not happy with Bertie saga.
    2) not happy with Fiannia fail.
    3) not happy with what happened with Heathrow v's Shannon route.
    4) politicians trying to bully the people into voting yes.
    5) People not happy with crime/Drugs and the government doing f*ck all about it .
    6) the farming community are not happy with the rules of the EU.
    7) the fishing community are not happy with the rules of the EU.
    8)People didn't understand the Treaty.
    9) People understood the treaty and voted no.

    now I know the first 7 are not good reasons to vote NO but they are valid reasons all the same, I think if there was another general election Fiania Fail would not get in and then if there was another referendum it would be passed
  • snoop dog
    Excellent , now Michael Martin has to go and explain the whole thing i am delighted couldnt have happened to a nicer person.
  • raggedtrousers
    skyguy completely agree. didn't france and neatherlands vote no? isn't britian opting out in the euro currency? just because the governments of other countries are railroading this through, doesn't mean that's what the voters want. i didn't vote in our government and could not vote yes when they said they hadn't read it- come on cop on.
  • goo
    squid, your comment 'one or two nutjobs from stormont' is no doubt a cheap dig at sinn fein. Surely with an intelect such as yours, you can defend your position on the Lisbon treaty without quasi self-righteous posturing via cheap digs at easy targets just becasue theyre fashionably unpopular. The term nut job hardly relects the positive achievments and contributions SF have made over the past number of years in fairness, not to mention the adversity theyve come thru.

    While leaning towards (political) republicanism myself, Sinn Feins stance on lisbon had little bearing on my own 'no' vote, nor did youth defence, but i dont need to put them down in order to justify my 'more honorable' reasons for voting No.

    just a thought.
  • skyguy
    the yes camp are awful sour losers
  • Sierra
    Great post lette, I also voted yes.
  • Rhebogue Ranter
    I don't think we should have been asked to vote on it. We have elected representatives to make those decisions for us. We elected them becuase we believed they act in our best interests.

    The only reason we were asked is becuase it's in our constitution that any changes to the constitution must be voted on by the people.

    Europe has been good for Ireland and countires are stronger in a union,

    I think that alot of the people that voted no didn't know why they voted no. If they didn't know they should have just stayed away from voting.
  • Phil
    Hi lette,

    I am going to admit I am a yes voter too! I'll post in solidarity with you. I think Kieths' piece is well thought out and it puts in to words all my reasons for voting yes.

    Phil
  • Squid
    "It is possible for a person perceived to be undemocratic to make a decision that is democratic. If we are to apply your logic what does voting with the BNP tell you about your self."

    It doesn't tell me anything. unlike the BNP I am pro-europe. and unlike me you won't find me kicking the shite out of people who oppose me.

    Under EU law, the treaty can only come into effect if it has been unanimously ratified by all member states. as one has not ratified then it is dead. simple as that.

    If they want to bring it back, then they are going to have to make changes to it. they made changes to after it's first incarnation, the EU constitution, failed,

    Had the treaty been passed, I would have had no choice but to respect that. I voted Yes to Nice 1 but because the views of the population was ignored I chose to vote No to Nice 2. Even though Nice 1 did not go the way i wanted it to.
  • Squid
    I don't see how the addition of a definate definition of a neutral state would change the treaty that much. Also they should add a list of the countries which have declared themselves neutral. As for the collective bargaining issue, a modification of the treaty is not required, it is down to irish legislation being implemented before the lisbon treaty is ratified. Cowen refused to do this.
  • Nautiman
    "The treaty has been vetoed. That should be the end of it."

    Squid that is removing other countries the right to say their piece, is that democratic? If Ireland had been first to voice our opinion and voted no, should the rest of Europe then loose their right decide their future.

    It is possible that all the other countries may ratify it and we will be sidelined, a member state but not part of the Lisbon Treaty. I doubt if that will work, there cant be two sets of rules for club members.

    As for renegotiating the treaty, that will require the member states who have already decided to re-ratify the treaty to suit Ireland demands, I doubt if that will happen.
  • Cloud
    Re: Squid
    >"The fact that Zarkozy wants ratification in other countries just shows how undemocratic the EU has become."
    It is possible for a person perceived to be undemocratic to make a decision that is democratic. If we are to apply your logic what does voting with the BNP tell you about your self. I submit that your point alone about what “Zarkozy wants” does not prove the EU undemocratic.

    Before I can support you views squid, I'll need something more concrete than the self-serving arguments of the anti EU campaign. I'll need proof of EU/Zarkozy duplicity. Not more words, proof!
    >"The treaty has been vetoed. That should be the end of it."
    It should be the end of until some people in a democratic society wish to discuss it. You should appreciate how unfair it would be, had the reformed passed and you were told the discussion is over "you cannot talk about repealing the referendum”. My friend if you wish to dictate when people can talk and when not you may have more in common with the BNP than you think?
  • Great piece, Keith!
  • Squid
    Oh, and in relation to the neutrality thing, I am not saying it should be a non legally binding declaration, it should be a legally binding part of the treaty.
  • Squid
    The fact that Zarkozy wants ratification in other countries just shows how undemocratic the EU has become. The treaty has been vetoed. That should be the end of it.

    Oh and just because I voted in the same way as the BNP and the one or two nutjobs on Stormfront, does not mean I identify with them.

    Maybe they could add something to the treaty to define what exactly a neutral country actually is. and that neutral countries could opt out of a common defence policy.

    Also legislation in our own parliment should be passed in relation to the collective bargaining issue as set out in the Charter of rights.
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